Re: Wikipedia page on AAH, wants you to know it is 'pseudoscience'.


Allan Krill
Jun 14  

My paragraph on the Bioko hypothesis was posted on Wikipedia for a few hours. Then it was removed by the editors, who think the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis is pseudoscience, and want to keep it that way.
Here is the discussion between Krillaa and those editors, concerning the removal of this topic:

Bioko

There needs to be a consensus on the Talk page before a paragraph like this can be added. Thanks for commenting.

Bioko island postulated to be the aquatic location

Bizarre creatures sometimes evolve on islands, a phenomenon known as the island syndrome. Geology professor Allan Krill recently suggested[1] that humans evolved by peripatric speciation on a barren volcanic island, in a scenario similar to that of the Galapagos Marine iguana. The chimpanzee-human last common ancestor may have accidentally rafted to proto-Bioko island of western Africa. As with the iguana, these arboreal animals may have been stranded with no forest foods, and their exclusively marine diet and semiaquatic habitat resulted in unique anatomical changes. Bioko has a rainy climate with neither strong sun nor cold nights, so body fur would not be as necessary there. Bioko has no large predators, so primates evolving into vulnerable humans could survive there without inventing weapons. Beaches on Bioko are visited by many sea turtles each night during much of the year, so turtle eggs and meat could have been shared by blubbery semiaquatic humans without tools or fire. Plentiful marine food may have supported large coastal populations, as with the marine iguana. Dense habitation may have led to self-domestication and Proto-Human language. Some hominins may have left Bioko and invented clothing, tools, and fire, that were necessary elsewhere. Because the warm humid climate of western Africa causes bones to decay rapidly, no mammal fossils have ever been reported from Bioko or any areas inhabited by chimpanzees or gorillas. Therefore there is no fossil evidence for chimpanzee or gorilla evolution, or for an early human presence on Bioko. If there was an average population of 10,000 semiaquatic humans on Bioko for 5 million years, this would be one billion people. The corpses of the 200 people who would have died each year could have been buried respectfully in the sea. Genetics might be able to test the Bioko hypothesis. Complementing the recent African origin of modern humans it seems possible that Neanderthals and early modern humans came directly from Bioko while it was connected to the mainland by a Pleistocene land bridge. Krillaa (talk) 12:17, 25 July 2021

I am not sure the ideas of a man operating well outside his area of expertise should be included.Slatersteven (talk) 12:21, 25 July 2021

that journal only appears to be interested in publishing these kinds of fringe ideas. It says it won't publish anything with actual empirical evidence, and to me it seems it's more of a creative writing journal than a scientific one   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:49, 25 July 2021

Are you saying that relevant ideas, that have been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, are not qualified to include in a controversial topic that has been deemed to be ‘pseudoscience’? Isn’t the real problem that this paragraph shows the aquatic ape hypothesis to be both scientific and plausible? Dunkleosteus77, it seems to me that you are afraid of the aquatic ape hypothesis seeming plausible, because it challenges the 38 wikipedia articles about hominns that you have authored. Krillaa (talk) 05:01, 26 July 2021

See wp:fringe, and this is not even by an evolutionary biologist.Slatersteven (talk) 09:34, 26 July 2021

This is also not a place to be publicizing your own work (looking at your username I assume you're Mr. A. Krill?)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:54, 26 July 2021

The aquatic ape hypothesis is a fringe theory. On wikipedia it looks like pseudoscience because most of the actual evidence in support of it is not mentioned. No wikipedia reader would ever think that the aquatic ape hypothesis is a mainstream or orthodox theory There will be no confusion about this. I am trying to inform wilipedia readers that within the context of this fringe theory there is a plausible location. These testable ideas have been published in a mainstream scientific journal. You are trying to keep wikipedia readers from knowing about this location and this open-access science article, and there is no legitimate justification for hiding these facts. Krillaa (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2021

That is like saying "well yes I know the moon is not made out of green cheese, but I want to tell readers about what kind of green cheese it is". Sorry, but if the theory is fringe it does not matter where they did not evolve, as the scientific community says they did not evolve there. Nor (again) does it matter what a non-subject matter expert thinks. He (or is it you) is not a biologist.Slatersteven (talk) 16:55, 26 July 2021

Slatersteven, if you really think this comparison is intelligent, you should retire (again) as a wikipedia editor. Science knows exactly what the Moon is made of. Science has no idea about where in Africa humans were exposed to the selection pressures that caused them to evolve so differently than other primates. An average chimp is considerably stonger and can run much faster than anyone in the Olympics. Why? Why did humans lose their protective body hair and their long canine teeth, that all other primates still have? Do you have possible answers? Do you care? Krillaa (talk) 06:20, 27 July 2021

I agree with Slater, I think your evidence here is flimsy beyond belief, and your arguments in support of your view are unconvincing and immature. Your source is an essay written by a Geologist (part of the problem with the AAH is that there are no anthropologists endorsing it) and published in one of the "Ideas in..." journals, which are technically peer-reviewed, but which states on it's about page that: ""IEE does not publish traditional review articles, or papers based primarily on experimental, data-driven studies." and which describes it's activities as "publish[ing] forum-style articles that develop New ideas or that involve original Commentaries on any topics within the broad domains of fundamental or applied ecology or evolution." (Emphasis in original)

So no, we're not going to include an entirely speculative essay by an author with absolutely no relevant credentials published in a journal that makes no effort to filter pseudoscience from science, provided it's written in sufficiently up-to-date jargon. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:56, 27 July 2021

Note they have admitted they are the author of this piece [[1]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 27 July 2021

That explains a lot. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:15, 27 July 2021

@Krillaa: I happen to agree with you that there is a distinct possibility of the existance of an aquatic ape. One only has to look at (eg) coronovirus to see evolution writ large. But it is understandably a fringe theory and may well stay at that for the chances of fossils being found in a tidal zone that itself may not have existed for 100,000s of years must be very small. Science moves ever onwards (look at Plate tectonics) to see how even into the 1960s people backing such proposals were not appointed to various universities! Writing and having an article published (I believe the paper you reference is written by you, please correct me if I am wrong) but then not acknowledging that fact, or checking if such a reference is acceptable does nothing to further the case for the aquatic ape. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia and as such should and must list the hypothesis and the informed / referenced thoughts of those that work in the field. Edmund Patrick – confer 07:26, 28 July 2021

Speciation on Bioko is an alternative paradigm that must be ignored (for now). It would mean «game over» for paleoanthroplogy as we know it. Krillaa (talk) 12:23, 30 July 2021

Don't pretend that your argument isn't super arbitrary. If your entire idea is based solely on absence of evidence isn't evidence of absent, and any supporting evidence is inherently undiscoverable, I can pick any island I want and just say chimp fossils simply haven't been identified that far away yet, or make up an island which is now underwater and can't be discovered   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:28, 30 July 2021

I understand that Geology isn't exactly a magnet for cranks, but surely, you have to have some experience with the sorts of people who publicly pronounce that "[my pet theory] means "game over" for [field of science]." Were any of them ever even remotely right? ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:45, 30 July 2021

MjolnirPantsFlood geologyMrOllie (talk) 12:50, 30 July 2021

I literally had that in mind when I said that they have to have some experience with it. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:07, 30 July 2021

When third party RS decides it should not be ignored so do we. Until then it violates wP:fringe and wp:undue to include it.12:26, 30 July 2021 (UTC)Slatersteven (talk

krillaa What? Edmund Patrick – confer 14:27, 30 July 2021

There are three questions you are asking: 1. Why is an aquatic environment indicated? 2. Why is the island syndrome indicated? 3. Why is Bioko island indicated? I suggest that you read something by Elaine Morgan (free pdfs on AquaticApe.net) and then read my paper three times. And try thinking for youself, instead of waiting for reliable sources with conflicts of interest to consider this alternative paradigm. (If you can’t change your mind, how do you know you have one?) Krillaa (talk) 07:11, 1 August 2021

No, there is one, do wp:rs care about this. You do not have consensus, it is clear you do not and it is now time to wp:dropthestick.Slatersteven (talk) 09:50, 1 August 2021

Agree. Thanks for commenting. Krillaa (talk) 11:44, 1 August 2021


References

  1. ^ Krill AG (2020). "A paradigm for the evolution of human traits: Apes trapped on barren volcanic islands". Ideas in Ecology and Evolution13: 1–10. doi:10.24908/iee.2020.13.1.n.
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